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	<title>Comments on: Rothbard&#8217;s Reds Redux</title>
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	<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393</link>
	<description>the bottom of the rabbit hole</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 03:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: BradSpangler.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; On the increasing irrelevancy of certain terms</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393/comment-page-1#comment-19712</link>
		<dc:creator>BradSpangler.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; On the increasing irrelevancy of certain terms</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393#comment-19712</guid>
		<description>[...] I&#8217;ve argued before, and still maintain, that certain strands of Rothbardian market anarchist thought from Rothbard&#8217;s alliance with the New Left phase in the 1960&#8217;s are better described as &#8220;libertarian socialism&#8221; in the same sense that Tucker was, and modern Tuckerite mutualists are, also &#8220;socialists&#8221; but not state socialists. This, despite Rothbard&#8217;s cultural Right tendencies and erroneous naming of his position as &#8220;anarcho-capitalism&#8221;. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I&#8217;ve argued before, and still maintain, that certain strands of Rothbardian market anarchist thought from Rothbard&#8217;s alliance with the New Left phase in the 1960&#8217;s are better described as &#8220;libertarian socialism&#8221; in the same sense that Tucker was, and modern Tuckerite mutualists are, also &#8220;socialists&#8221; but not state socialists. This, despite Rothbard&#8217;s cultural Right tendencies and erroneous naming of his position as &#8220;anarcho-capitalism&#8221;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Liberator Reloaded</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393/comment-page-1#comment-18977</link>
		<dc:creator>The Liberator Reloaded</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Feb 2007 04:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393#comment-18977</guid>
		<description>[...] And, finally, I should mention why I consider myself, today, an unabashed leftist. You see, it occurred to me while reading an excellent post by Brad Spangler (see also a more recent one illustrating a similar point) that, depending on how one defines ones terms, I could be considered the following: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] And, finally, I should mention why I consider myself, today, an unabashed leftist. You see, it occurred to me while reading an excellent post by Brad Spangler (see also a more recent one illustrating a similar point) that, depending on how one defines ones terms, I could be considered the following: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: BradSpangler.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Against voting</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393/comment-page-1#comment-11231</link>
		<dc:creator>BradSpangler.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Against voting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393#comment-11231</guid>
		<description>[...] The fact also remains that a lot of well-intentioned libertarians who aspire toward principled behavior, including some who see themselves as more Left than Right, remain attached to counter-productive electoral reformist strategies. As I&#8217;ve said before, if we (agorists and radical left-libertarians generally) are the new Reds, there will be shades of pink. Such is the nature of the battle of ideas. There will be a spectrum of incomplete acceptance. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The fact also remains that a lot of well-intentioned libertarians who aspire toward principled behavior, including some who see themselves as more Left than Right, remain attached to counter-productive electoral reformist strategies. As I&#8217;ve said before, if we (agorists and radical left-libertarians generally) are the new Reds, there will be shades of pink. Such is the nature of the battle of ideas. There will be a spectrum of incomplete acceptance. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: liberty</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393/comment-page-1#comment-5390</link>
		<dc:creator>liberty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Apr 2006 01:45:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393#comment-5390</guid>
		<description>I have to go too.  I will stop by again, though.  Our debate at this point is more about method than even your extreme view that all government must be abolished.   As I said, I think that limited to just protection of life, liberty and property, government is fine.  But, even if we were to abolish it at the end, the righ way to do it is to use the limitations already enumerated in the constitution, and amend (or roll back amendments) where necessary.  Once government is that small, it would be easy and naturall to abolish if necessary.

The links I gave you show that is has grown, but they also show that it has been reduced in size since 1960 by a significant amount and they also show why it has grown and shrunk and that people care about this issue.

For more people who care about the size of government - see &lt;a href='http://www.humaneventsonline.com/sarticle.php?id=13700' rel="nofollow"&gt;conservatives&lt;/a&gt;.

You may disagree with them on many other issues, but there are some that are ready to follow the path I laid out in terms of reducing government down to its barest bones.  That link is mostly about taxes, but you can see a few that are ready to go much farther:

10. Rep. John Linder (R.-Ga.)
Member of the House Ways and Means Committee. Lead sponsor of the "Fair Tax," which would abolish the income tax, eliminate the IRS and create a consumption tax.

6. Sen. John Sununu (R.-N.H.)
A consistent proponent of tax cuts and opponent of spending increases. Ran for office on the issue of Social Security reform and championed legislation for reform through personal retirement accounts.

3. Rep. Jeff Flake (R.-Ariz.)
Sponsor of a bill to require the Congressional Budget Office to use dynamic scoring for proposed tax cuts and co-sponsor with Rep. Ron Paul of a constitutional amendment to repeal the 16th Amendment. Consistent proponent of tax cuts and opponent of spending increases.

2. Sen. Jim DeMint (R.-S.C.)
Sponsor of legislation (the 8.5% Tax Reform Plan) to abolish the income tax and replace it with a national sales tax and business tax.

1. Rep. Ron Paul (R.-Tex.)
Co-sponsor with Rep. Jeff Flake of a constitutional amendment to repeal the 16th Amendment and end income, gift and estate taxes. Regularly pushes for tax cuts. Sponsor of bills to allow tax credits for private school tuition, to permit tax deduction of college tuition and to stop all taxation of Social Security benefits. Opposes all unconstitutional spending programs.

It is possible to do it my way - your way is simply too dangerous and won't work, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to go too.  I will stop by again, though.  Our debate at this point is more about method than even your extreme view that all government must be abolished.   As I said, I think that limited to just protection of life, liberty and property, government is fine.  But, even if we were to abolish it at the end, the righ way to do it is to use the limitations already enumerated in the constitution, and amend (or roll back amendments) where necessary.  Once government is that small, it would be easy and naturall to abolish if necessary.</p>
<p>The links I gave you show that is has grown, but they also show that it has been reduced in size since 1960 by a significant amount and they also show why it has grown and shrunk and that people care about this issue.</p>
<p>For more people who care about the size of government - see <a href='http://www.humaneventsonline.com/sarticle.php?id=13700' rel="nofollow">conservatives</a>.</p>
<p>You may disagree with them on many other issues, but there are some that are ready to follow the path I laid out in terms of reducing government down to its barest bones.  That link is mostly about taxes, but you can see a few that are ready to go much farther:</p>
<p>10. Rep. John Linder (R.-Ga.)<br />
Member of the House Ways and Means Committee. Lead sponsor of the &#8220;Fair Tax,&#8221; which would abolish the income tax, eliminate the IRS and create a consumption tax.</p>
<p>6. Sen. John Sununu (R.-N.H.)<br />
A consistent proponent of tax cuts and opponent of spending increases. Ran for office on the issue of Social Security reform and championed legislation for reform through personal retirement accounts.</p>
<p>3. Rep. Jeff Flake (R.-Ariz.)<br />
Sponsor of a bill to require the Congressional Budget Office to use dynamic scoring for proposed tax cuts and co-sponsor with Rep. Ron Paul of a constitutional amendment to repeal the 16th Amendment. Consistent proponent of tax cuts and opponent of spending increases.</p>
<p>2. Sen. Jim DeMint (R.-S.C.)<br />
Sponsor of legislation (the 8.5% Tax Reform Plan) to abolish the income tax and replace it with a national sales tax and business tax.</p>
<p>1. Rep. Ron Paul (R.-Tex.)<br />
Co-sponsor with Rep. Jeff Flake of a constitutional amendment to repeal the 16th Amendment and end income, gift and estate taxes. Regularly pushes for tax cuts. Sponsor of bills to allow tax credits for private school tuition, to permit tax deduction of college tuition and to stop all taxation of Social Security benefits. Opposes all unconstitutional spending programs.</p>
<p>It is possible to do it my way - your way is simply too dangerous and won&#8217;t work, anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Spangler</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393/comment-page-1#comment-5385</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Spangler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Apr 2006 01:23:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393#comment-5385</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If you actually care to consider the other side, do read those links. I did read what you gave me.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I promise I will read them. That, however, can not sway my conviction that any coercive government is fundamentally immoral and that governments inevitably overcome any constitutional constraints on their power. I'd like to respond in more detail to your other two comments, but I do have some other things I need to do right now. I do urge you to stick around, though, as I consider the debate exhilirating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If you actually care to consider the other side, do read those links. I did read what you gave me.</p></blockquote>
<p>I promise I will read them. That, however, can not sway my conviction that any coercive government is fundamentally immoral and that governments inevitably overcome any constitutional constraints on their power. I&#8217;d like to respond in more detail to your other two comments, but I do have some other things I need to do right now. I do urge you to stick around, though, as I consider the debate exhilirating.</p>
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		<title>By: liberty</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393/comment-page-1#comment-5384</link>
		<dc:creator>liberty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Apr 2006 01:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393#comment-5384</guid>
		<description>If you want some statistics, you can see that we have reduced government spending from its height in the late 1970ss back to where it was in 1960.  If we axed the social programs, we could get back to pre-FDR.  Many people advocate this.  Simply because you don't believe it and are impatient doesn't make you right, nor does it mean that revolution is the answer.

http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=3521&#38;sequence=0
http://www.house.gov/jec/growth/govtsize/govtsize.htm

Yes, those were produced by the government - but this is because in this country we are capable of recognizing the need to reduce government and unlike the Soviet Union don' have all of our incentives ass-backward.  If you actually care to consider the other side, do read those links.  I did read what you gave me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want some statistics, you can see that we have reduced government spending from its height in the late 1970ss back to where it was in 1960.  If we axed the social programs, we could get back to pre-FDR.  Many people advocate this.  Simply because you don&#8217;t believe it and are impatient doesn&#8217;t make you right, nor does it mean that revolution is the answer.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=3521&amp;sequence=0" rel="nofollow">http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=3521&amp;sequence=0</a><br />
<a href="http://www.house.gov/jec/growth/govtsize/govtsize.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.house.gov/jec/growth/govtsize/govtsize.htm</a></p>
<p>Yes, those were produced by the government - but this is because in this country we are capable of recognizing the need to reduce government and unlike the Soviet Union don&#8217; have all of our incentives ass-backward.  If you actually care to consider the other side, do read those links.  I did read what you gave me.</p>
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		<title>By: liberty</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393/comment-page-1#comment-5383</link>
		<dc:creator>liberty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Apr 2006 00:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393#comment-5383</guid>
		<description>Obviously its not the only measure - but it does tell you a lot that we went form taking nearly all the income of hard working people, to taking only 1/3.  That is a big step.  What was expanded to such a degree as to equal that reduction?

How is the government more powerful now than when, under FDR, millions of Americans were working for Uncle Sam directly and a federal NRA program limited working hours and set wages for other business?

Between the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) and the Works Progress Administration (WPA), millions of Americans were reforesting for their country.

Give me some examples of how the US today is more statist than it was then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously its not the only measure - but it does tell you a lot that we went form taking nearly all the income of hard working people, to taking only 1/3.  That is a big step.  What was expanded to such a degree as to equal that reduction?</p>
<p>How is the government more powerful now than when, under FDR, millions of Americans were working for Uncle Sam directly and a federal NRA program limited working hours and set wages for other business?</p>
<p>Between the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) and the Works Progress Administration (WPA), millions of Americans were reforesting for their country.</p>
<p>Give me some examples of how the US today is more statist than it was then.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Spangler</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393/comment-page-1#comment-5381</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Spangler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Apr 2006 00:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393#comment-5381</guid>
		<description>Things can be &lt;em&gt;different&lt;/em&gt; without being &lt;em&gt;better&lt;/em&gt;. If the tax rate is your &lt;em&gt;only&lt;/em&gt; measure of how free you are, then it sounds like you need to expand your horizons, to say the least. I am implacably opposed to taxation, far more so than you are. The government has, since 1960 and long before, been getting bigger and more powerful. Its antithesis, Liberty, has naturally suffered as a result.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Things can be <em>different</em> without being <em>better</em>. If the tax rate is your <em>only</em> measure of how free you are, then it sounds like you need to expand your horizons, to say the least. I am implacably opposed to taxation, far more so than you are. The government has, since 1960 and long before, been getting bigger and more powerful. Its antithesis, Liberty, has naturally suffered as a result.</p>
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		<title>By: liberty</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393/comment-page-1#comment-5379</link>
		<dc:creator>liberty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Apr 2006 00:20:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393#comment-5379</guid>
		<description>You would say we are worse off than in 1960 when the top tax bracket was 85.5%?  You were only entitled to 15% of your earned income, today you keep 70%, but we are worse off, more statist now?  What about when we rolled back some of FDR's programs - was that illusory too? Things are always getting worse until the revolution, eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You would say we are worse off than in 1960 when the top tax bracket was 85.5%?  You were only entitled to 15% of your earned income, today you keep 70%, but we are worse off, more statist now?  What about when we rolled back some of FDR&#8217;s programs - was that illusory too? Things are always getting worse until the revolution, eh?</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Spangler</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393/comment-page-1#comment-5377</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Spangler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Apr 2006 23:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/393#comment-5377</guid>
		<description>No, we've not made progress. Government has continued to expand, particularly in the last few years under absolute Republican control at the federal level. Gradualism in theory is perpetuity in practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, we&#8217;ve not made progress. Government has continued to expand, particularly in the last few years under absolute Republican control at the federal level. Gradualism in theory is perpetuity in practice.</p>
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