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	<title>Comments on: KC Activists Takeover Local Gas Stations</title>
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	<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432</link>
	<description>the bottom of the rabbit hole</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Brad Spangler</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432/comment-page-1#comment-10467</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Spangler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Aug 2006 17:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432#comment-10467</guid>
		<description>Looking back over the above, I noticed that I phrased one part poorly and want to take the opportunity to correct myself. Rather than saying that there's "no such thing as a genuine corporate property right", it would have been more accurate of me to say that, in ethical terms, corporate property rights are illegitimate to the same degree that particular business is a recipient of subsidies or other government privileges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking back over the above, I noticed that I phrased one part poorly and want to take the opportunity to correct myself. Rather than saying that there&#8217;s &#8220;no such thing as a genuine corporate property right&#8221;, it would have been more accurate of me to say that, in ethical terms, corporate property rights are illegitimate to the same degree that particular business is a recipient of subsidies or other government privileges.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Spangler</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432/comment-page-1#comment-10466</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Spangler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Aug 2006 17:44:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432#comment-10466</guid>
		<description>Calling it "bullying" assumes an innocent party. The stations are corporate so-called "property", yet it is the corporate-dominated state's war that the action was a response to. Customers may have been inconvenienced, but nobody's actual human rights were violated -- not even anybody's property rights in an ethical sense, because there's no such thing as a genuine corporate property right due to the alliance of corporations with the state.

Now if they had gone around spiking gas tanks on people's cars, for example, that would be different in ethical terms and something I would condemn. Furthermore, if you'll read further up, you'll note that I somewhat agree with you that the gas station action wasn't the best possible choice. That's a PR concern rather than an ethical one, though. Clearly the gas station action has been misinterpreted as a rebuke to gas buyers -- which I would never intend, regardless of what the views of Code Pink members are.

Even so, I'm generally encouraged to see more radicalism generally. The mainstream hasn't gotten off its ass to stop this war yet. How much longer will that be the case? We shall see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Calling it &#8220;bullying&#8221; assumes an innocent party. The stations are corporate so-called &#8220;property&#8221;, yet it is the corporate-dominated state&#8217;s war that the action was a response to. Customers may have been inconvenienced, but nobody&#8217;s actual human rights were violated &#8212; not even anybody&#8217;s property rights in an ethical sense, because there&#8217;s no such thing as a genuine corporate property right due to the alliance of corporations with the state.</p>
<p>Now if they had gone around spiking gas tanks on people&#8217;s cars, for example, that would be different in ethical terms and something I would condemn. Furthermore, if you&#8217;ll read further up, you&#8217;ll note that I somewhat agree with you that the gas station action wasn&#8217;t the best possible choice. That&#8217;s a PR concern rather than an ethical one, though. Clearly the gas station action has been misinterpreted as a rebuke to gas buyers &#8212; which I would never intend, regardless of what the views of Code Pink members are.</p>
<p>Even so, I&#8217;m generally encouraged to see more radicalism generally. The mainstream hasn&#8217;t gotten off its ass to stop this war yet. How much longer will that be the case? We shall see.</p>
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		<title>By: martinidreams</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432/comment-page-1#comment-10462</link>
		<dc:creator>martinidreams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Aug 2006 16:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432#comment-10462</guid>
		<description>Corporately owned or not, it doesn't change the hypocrisy of their actions.  To use a tactic they openly condemn others of using they become the bullies they claim to hate.  
I disagree with you that corporate owned businesses are legitimate "targets" when those affected are simply employees and general public.  
Code Pink screwed up any rep they had over this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Corporately owned or not, it doesn&#8217;t change the hypocrisy of their actions.  To use a tactic they openly condemn others of using they become the bullies they claim to hate.<br />
I disagree with you that corporate owned businesses are legitimate &#8220;targets&#8221; when those affected are simply employees and general public.<br />
Code Pink screwed up any rep they had over this.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Spangler</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432/comment-page-1#comment-10428</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Spangler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Aug 2006 18:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432#comment-10428</guid>
		<description>@martinidreams
&lt;em&gt;I fail to see how they can justify their actions.&lt;/em&gt;
Well, the stations are corporate owned to the best of my knowledge. Most large corporations in todays business climate are de facto appendages of the government to varying degrees, as a consequence of subsidies and assorterd other political privileges granted to those corporations by the government. As such, they're just as illegitimate to me, as an anarchist and a defender of genuine property rights, as the government.

Note that I'm only speaking for myself and not Code Pink or SDS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@martinidreams<br />
<em>I fail to see how they can justify their actions.</em><br />
Well, the stations are corporate owned to the best of my knowledge. Most large corporations in todays business climate are de facto appendages of the government to varying degrees, as a consequence of subsidies and assorterd other political privileges granted to those corporations by the government. As such, they&#8217;re just as illegitimate to me, as an anarchist and a defender of genuine property rights, as the government.</p>
<p>Note that I&#8217;m only speaking for myself and not Code Pink or SDS.</p>
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		<title>By: martinidreams</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432/comment-page-1#comment-10427</link>
		<dc:creator>martinidreams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Aug 2006 18:20:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432#comment-10427</guid>
		<description>I fail to see how they can justify their actions.  They criticize the US for invading and occupying Iraq yet they feel they have the right to invade and occupy any business they want at their whim?  Affecting the lively hood of the employees?  Keeping people from getting through their day?  People just trying to get home to their kids after a hard days work?  

Sorry, wrong targets.  If they want to get that message across there are better ways than being the bullies they claim to hate so much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I fail to see how they can justify their actions.  They criticize the US for invading and occupying Iraq yet they feel they have the right to invade and occupy any business they want at their whim?  Affecting the lively hood of the employees?  Keeping people from getting through their day?  People just trying to get home to their kids after a hard days work?  </p>
<p>Sorry, wrong targets.  If they want to get that message across there are better ways than being the bullies they claim to hate so much.</p>
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		<title>By: TimWB</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432/comment-page-1#comment-10395</link>
		<dc:creator>TimWB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 21:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432#comment-10395</guid>
		<description>"New and energetic *action* ?"

When I am not voting Democrat, I am voting Green, and live in a Blue state. If this new-active-energy thing had happened while I was trying to get home during a rush-hour-KC-summer, my assault would not have been theoretical. And I'm a guy who *agrees* with you.

And "action". Anti-abortion protesters "blockade" and "harass" when they block private property. How come this is an "action"?

What's good for the goose, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;New and energetic *action* ?&#8221;</p>
<p>When I am not voting Democrat, I am voting Green, and live in a Blue state. If this new-active-energy thing had happened while I was trying to get home during a rush-hour-KC-summer, my assault would not have been theoretical. And I&#8217;m a guy who *agrees* with you.</p>
<p>And &#8220;action&#8221;. Anti-abortion protesters &#8220;blockade&#8221; and &#8220;harass&#8221; when they block private property. How come this is an &#8220;action&#8221;?</p>
<p>What&#8217;s good for the goose, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Barker</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432/comment-page-1#comment-10394</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Barker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 18:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432#comment-10394</guid>
		<description>Hmm, Doesn't Quiktripp use CITGO gas? 

CITGO gas comes from Venezuela, and of course, we know Hugo Chavez is the president of Venezuela, and Cindy Sheehan is Hugo Chavez's good friend. And Cindy Sheehan is also Code Pink's CEO. And we all know Medea is down with the socialists.

How much sense does this protest make?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, Doesn&#8217;t Quiktripp use CITGO gas? </p>
<p>CITGO gas comes from Venezuela, and of course, we know Hugo Chavez is the president of Venezuela, and Cindy Sheehan is Hugo Chavez&#8217;s good friend. And Cindy Sheehan is also Code Pink&#8217;s CEO. And we all know Medea is down with the socialists.</p>
<p>How much sense does this protest make?</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Spangler</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432/comment-page-1#comment-10016</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Spangler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Jul 2006 21:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432#comment-10016</guid>
		<description>Valid criticism, but let me please explain why I regard it as not particularly bad activism either.

The three (corporate owned) gas stations in question were in a row within approximately a three to four block area. One at a time was targeted, at any time leaving the other two open. It would seem some sort of case could be made that any disruption was rather minimal.

At each station, flyers were handed out explaining what was going on and why.

Prior to the action, the level of activity for the groups in question were much lower. This qualifies as the beginning of a campaign of more frequent and higher profile activity -- "signs of life" for local anti-war radicalism, so to speak.

The action was carried out non-violently, save for (reportedly) justifiable self-defense on one participants part.

Gas stations have been a common rhetorical target of working class ire in the area.

Clearly, these targets fall under the "grey area" in the middle of the spectrum explained in Agorist Class Theory, rather than being clear embodiments of one or the other of the polar opposites at each end of that spectrum. It is my personal, and admittedly subjective, assessment that the capacity of the particular shades of grey in question were not exceeded.

All in all, not bad for ordinary leftists without libertarian input (I had client matters to attend to that day and was out of the loop on the planning process for the action. I would agree that targets more closely aligned with the ruling class would make for much *better* activism, but I don't see much worthy of vigorous condemnation either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Valid criticism, but let me please explain why I regard it as not particularly bad activism either.</p>
<p>The three (corporate owned) gas stations in question were in a row within approximately a three to four block area. One at a time was targeted, at any time leaving the other two open. It would seem some sort of case could be made that any disruption was rather minimal.</p>
<p>At each station, flyers were handed out explaining what was going on and why.</p>
<p>Prior to the action, the level of activity for the groups in question were much lower. This qualifies as the beginning of a campaign of more frequent and higher profile activity &#8212; &#8220;signs of life&#8221; for local anti-war radicalism, so to speak.</p>
<p>The action was carried out non-violently, save for (reportedly) justifiable self-defense on one participants part.</p>
<p>Gas stations have been a common rhetorical target of working class ire in the area.</p>
<p>Clearly, these targets fall under the &#8220;grey area&#8221; in the middle of the spectrum explained in Agorist Class Theory, rather than being clear embodiments of one or the other of the polar opposites at each end of that spectrum. It is my personal, and admittedly subjective, assessment that the capacity of the particular shades of grey in question were not exceeded.</p>
<p>All in all, not bad for ordinary leftists without libertarian input (I had client matters to attend to that day and was out of the loop on the planning process for the action. I would agree that targets more closely aligned with the ruling class would make for much *better* activism, but I don&#8217;t see much worthy of vigorous condemnation either.</p>
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		<title>By: berserkrl</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432/comment-page-1#comment-10015</link>
		<dc:creator>berserkrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Jul 2006 20:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/432#comment-10015</guid>
		<description>This doesn't seem like such great activism to me.  It causes hassles to ordinary working stiffs (drivers and gas station attendants) but not much to the ruling class, and it seems more likely to leave those it inconveniences with their ire (rather than their consciousness) raised.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This doesn&#8217;t seem like such great activism to me.  It causes hassles to ordinary working stiffs (drivers and gas station attendants) but not much to the ruling class, and it seems more likely to leave those it inconveniences with their ire (rather than their consciousness) raised.</p>
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