<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Against voting</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/452/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/452</link>
	<description>the bottom of the rabbit hole</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: presto</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/452/comment-page-1#comment-11253</link>
		<dc:creator>presto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Sep 2006 03:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/?p=452#comment-11253</guid>
		<description>Two more examples of votes being overturned:

1. Washington had a blanket primary allowing voters to vote for any candidate in the primary without having to declare a party preference.  You could vote for a Democrat in one office, Republican in another, Libertarian in another, etc.  This measure was passed in 1935 as Initative 2.  This was in effect until 2003, when the 9th circuit court threw out the blanket primary.

In 2004, Washington voters passed Initative 872 by a 60% margin, creating a "Top Two" primary to comply with the 9th circuit decision and the US Supreme court decision throwing out the California blanket primary.  In this system, the top two vote getters in the primary, regardless of party, went on to the general election ballot.  The parties sued, and in July of 2005 US District Judge Thomas Zilly threw out initative 872.  Appeals continue to languish in the courts so far as I know.

2. In 1993, Washington voters passed Initative 601, limiting tax increases to the rate of inflation.  Any tax increase beyond that limit, required a 60% supermajority in the legislature to pass.  The state legislature passed an "emergency" measure, Senate Bill 6078 in 2005, overriding the will of the voters and restoring the simple majority requirement.  This emergency provision blocks any voter challenge to the bill.  When the Washingtom Farm Bureau tried to file an referendum petition to overturn the bill, Secretary of State Sam Reed refused to accept the filing, due to the Legislature's "emergency" provision.  

The Farm Bureau sued, and on July 14, 2005, the state Supreme Court essentially said that the legislature can essentially declare anything an emergency.  Justice Charles Johnson wrote in the decision that "The Washington State Constitution and our jurisprudence dictate that the Legislature may suspend the right of the people to order a referendum on a bill where the bill is necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health or in support of state government and its existing public institutions." 

In his dissent, Justice Richard B. Sanders stated, "The majority betrays the sacred trust the people of this state place in this court to preserve inviolate their constitutional right to veto unwanted legislation through referendum. A legislature determined to inoculate itself from referendum, a secretary of state determined to violate his statutory and constitutional duty to allow a referendum petition to at least circulate, combined with a supreme court openly hostile to the people's check on the legislature, brews a potent poison to the people's constitutional role in the legislative process."

Essentially, in the two cases the state Supreme Court said that the people have no real rights.  The voters do not rule, the parties and the politicans do.  I have given up any hope for change through conventional politics.  Regardless of whatever view that I might have had on any particular bill*, I thought that when the voters spoke, that was supposed to be the end of the issue.  The government was supposed to respect "the will of the people" as expressed by the vote. The above shows why that is not so.

-Presto
-------------------------
*For instance, I wanted to throw out the primary election altogether.  Why should taxpayers subsidize the parties' nominating process?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two more examples of votes being overturned:</p>
<p>1. Washington had a blanket primary allowing voters to vote for any candidate in the primary without having to declare a party preference.  You could vote for a Democrat in one office, Republican in another, Libertarian in another, etc.  This measure was passed in 1935 as Initative 2.  This was in effect until 2003, when the 9th circuit court threw out the blanket primary.</p>
<p>In 2004, Washington voters passed Initative 872 by a 60% margin, creating a &#8220;Top Two&#8221; primary to comply with the 9th circuit decision and the US Supreme court decision throwing out the California blanket primary.  In this system, the top two vote getters in the primary, regardless of party, went on to the general election ballot.  The parties sued, and in July of 2005 US District Judge Thomas Zilly threw out initative 872.  Appeals continue to languish in the courts so far as I know.</p>
<p>2. In 1993, Washington voters passed Initative 601, limiting tax increases to the rate of inflation.  Any tax increase beyond that limit, required a 60% supermajority in the legislature to pass.  The state legislature passed an &#8220;emergency&#8221; measure, Senate Bill 6078 in 2005, overriding the will of the voters and restoring the simple majority requirement.  This emergency provision blocks any voter challenge to the bill.  When the Washingtom Farm Bureau tried to file an referendum petition to overturn the bill, Secretary of State Sam Reed refused to accept the filing, due to the Legislature&#8217;s &#8220;emergency&#8221; provision.  </p>
<p>The Farm Bureau sued, and on July 14, 2005, the state Supreme Court essentially said that the legislature can essentially declare anything an emergency.  Justice Charles Johnson wrote in the decision that &#8220;The Washington State Constitution and our jurisprudence dictate that the Legislature may suspend the right of the people to order a referendum on a bill where the bill is necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health or in support of state government and its existing public institutions.&#8221; </p>
<p>In his dissent, Justice Richard B. Sanders stated, &#8220;The majority betrays the sacred trust the people of this state place in this court to preserve inviolate their constitutional right to veto unwanted legislation through referendum. A legislature determined to inoculate itself from referendum, a secretary of state determined to violate his statutory and constitutional duty to allow a referendum petition to at least circulate, combined with a supreme court openly hostile to the people&#8217;s check on the legislature, brews a potent poison to the people&#8217;s constitutional role in the legislative process.&#8221;</p>
<p>Essentially, in the two cases the state Supreme Court said that the people have no real rights.  The voters do not rule, the parties and the politicans do.  I have given up any hope for change through conventional politics.  Regardless of whatever view that I might have had on any particular bill*, I thought that when the voters spoke, that was supposed to be the end of the issue.  The government was supposed to respect &#8220;the will of the people&#8221; as expressed by the vote. The above shows why that is not so.</p>
<p>-Presto<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
*For instance, I wanted to throw out the primary election altogether.  Why should taxpayers subsidize the parties&#8217; nominating process?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: freeman</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/452/comment-page-1#comment-11252</link>
		<dc:creator>freeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Sep 2006 00:59:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/?p=452#comment-11252</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;WTF @ the government being able to sue someoneÃ¢â‚¬Â¦&lt;/i&gt;

WTF indeed.  With that in mind, it makes ya wonder how the government would respond if people (however unlikely it actually is) were to ever elect a 3rd party candidate for President.  Methinks the government would step in and make sure that someone different winds up being inauguated come January.

One of the biggest illusions haunting mankind is the notion that the government represents the people and that you and I actually have an influence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>WTF @ the government being able to sue someoneÃ¢â‚¬Â¦</i></p>
<p>WTF indeed.  With that in mind, it makes ya wonder how the government would respond if people (however unlikely it actually is) were to ever elect a 3rd party candidate for President.  Methinks the government would step in and make sure that someone different winds up being inauguated come January.</p>
<p>One of the biggest illusions haunting mankind is the notion that the government represents the people and that you and I actually have an influence.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: b-psycho</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/452/comment-page-1#comment-11251</link>
		<dc:creator>b-psycho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 22:11:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/?p=452#comment-11251</guid>
		<description>WTF @ the government being able to sue someone...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WTF @ the government being able to sue someone&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dano</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/452/comment-page-1#comment-11247</link>
		<dc:creator>Dano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 19:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/?p=452#comment-11247</guid>
		<description>Yes! Libertarians shouldn't form a part of the illness, but a part of the remedy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes! Libertarians shouldn&#8217;t form a part of the illness, but a part of the remedy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Matt Jenny</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/452/comment-page-1#comment-11246</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 09:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/?p=452#comment-11246</guid>
		<description>presto,

"We won, but the stadium was built anyway under an 'emergency' declaration."

That would be impossible in Switzerland. The Swiss majority has the last word on a great deal of issues. One of the few cool things here. The downside to it is just that it turns out to be the dictatorship of the majority instead of the dictatorhip of a minority.

"In addition, the initative process has been corrupted by powerful business interests. No independent group has any chance to out-propogandize the corporate machine. We simply do not have the money."

That's the same in Switzerland, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>presto,</p>
<p>&#8220;We won, but the stadium was built anyway under an &#8216;emergency&#8217; declaration.&#8221;</p>
<p>That would be impossible in Switzerland. The Swiss majority has the last word on a great deal of issues. One of the few cool things here. The downside to it is just that it turns out to be the dictatorship of the majority instead of the dictatorhip of a minority.</p>
<p>&#8220;In addition, the initative process has been corrupted by powerful business interests. No independent group has any chance to out-propogandize the corporate machine. We simply do not have the money.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the same in Switzerland, of course.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: wconger</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/452/comment-page-1#comment-11241</link>
		<dc:creator>wconger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 04:44:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/?p=452#comment-11241</guid>
		<description>This is terrific. How about refashioning this into a new MLL pamphlet in time for the November elections?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is terrific. How about refashioning this into a new MLL pamphlet in time for the November elections?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: presto</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/452/comment-page-1#comment-11240</link>
		<dc:creator>presto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Sep 2006 22:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/?p=452#comment-11240</guid>
		<description>Matt,

I don't know about how things are in Switzerland, but here in Washington State in the USA, the government has a habit of ignoring and overturning referendums and initatives.  I worked on an campaign to defeat the measure financing Safeco Field in Seattle.  We won, but the stadium was built anyway under an "emergency" declaration. We voted to limit car tab licence fees to $30 TWICE, and the voters were sued by the government and the initative was overturned by the courts!

In addition, the initative process has been corrupted by powerful business interests.  No independent group has any chance to out-propogandize the corporate machine.  We simply do not have the money.

In short, voting in the USA against having your head cut off would be pointless.  If the government wanted to do so, it would find a way regardless of the outcome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know about how things are in Switzerland, but here in Washington State in the USA, the government has a habit of ignoring and overturning referendums and initatives.  I worked on an campaign to defeat the measure financing Safeco Field in Seattle.  We won, but the stadium was built anyway under an &#8220;emergency&#8221; declaration. We voted to limit car tab licence fees to $30 TWICE, and the voters were sued by the government and the initative was overturned by the courts!</p>
<p>In addition, the initative process has been corrupted by powerful business interests.  No independent group has any chance to out-propogandize the corporate machine.  We simply do not have the money.</p>
<p>In short, voting in the USA against having your head cut off would be pointless.  If the government wanted to do so, it would find a way regardless of the outcome.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: presto</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/452/comment-page-1#comment-11239</link>
		<dc:creator>presto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Sep 2006 22:21:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/?p=452#comment-11239</guid>
		<description>Brad, I announced my intentions to no longer vote in a post in my blog a couple of weeks ago.  The post is &lt;a href="http://prestosramblings.blogspot.com/2006/08/to-vote-or-not-to-vote-that-is.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.

It's a little bit rambling, as fits my blog's name, but the gist is that voting is pointless.  An organization as large as the US central government is ungovernable in any meaningful sense.  Even if we could get a LP member elected President*, I don't think things would change much.  It would take every member of the federal government to become libertatian, an unlikely prospect.  Even if that were possible, having that many libertarians around would make political office unnecessary.

I believe that you and I are in agreement that what we need to do is to proclaim our message and demonstrate that it is truly possible to live free.

-Presto
-----------------------
*This is very unlikely given the current campaign finance system, and legal/structural issues that favor the current dominant parties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad, I announced my intentions to no longer vote in a post in my blog a couple of weeks ago.  The post is <a href="http://prestosramblings.blogspot.com/2006/08/to-vote-or-not-to-vote-that-is.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a little bit rambling, as fits my blog&#8217;s name, but the gist is that voting is pointless.  An organization as large as the US central government is ungovernable in any meaningful sense.  Even if we could get a LP member elected President*, I don&#8217;t think things would change much.  It would take every member of the federal government to become libertatian, an unlikely prospect.  Even if that were possible, having that many libertarians around would make political office unnecessary.</p>
<p>I believe that you and I are in agreement that what we need to do is to proclaim our message and demonstrate that it is truly possible to live free.</p>
<p>-Presto<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;<br />
*This is very unlikely given the current campaign finance system, and legal/structural issues that favor the current dominant parties.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: francoistremblay</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/452/comment-page-1#comment-11238</link>
		<dc:creator>francoistremblay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Sep 2006 22:16:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/?p=452#comment-11238</guid>
		<description>Your second-to-last paragraph does not make much sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your second-to-last paragraph does not make much sense.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Matt Jenny</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/452/comment-page-1#comment-11237</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Sep 2006 18:04:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/?p=452#comment-11237</guid>
		<description>Nice post. Of course I've thought about these issues too. Just some quick thoughts:

I am pretty sure that I will never vote for anyone. I'd probably have to reconsider under the following two circumstances:
-If there were a candidate who said that his only goal is to abolish the State. I would reconsider it although it would be pointless for me to vote because if such a person could get a lot of votes, we could sure as hell achive anarchy through agorist means.
-If there were a candidate like Hitler who had a good chance of winning. I would probably vote against that person. But then again, if there were such a candidate, everything would be lost already.
Apart from that, I will never waste my time in party politics.
(The Swiss system is slightly different but that's just the simple version of it.)

What I will do, however, is engage in the referendums, which are put to a vote quite frequently in Switzerland. I think a real direct democracy is not really distinguishable from a libertarian society. Of course, Switzerland is by no means a real direct democracy. But as long as I can directly alter the course the politics here are taking, I will do that. I will always vote "More Liberty - Yes" and "Less Liberty - No". I don't see how that's counterproductive in any sense. To refuse to vote on getting your finger cut off is not the same as saying that you don't agree with any aggression towards yourself. So why not vote on getting your finger cut off instead of getting your head cut off? My problems with voting for a politician is not a moral one but a pragmatic one. I can't delegate my needs and wants to anybody, so I would only vote for someone who promised to leave me alone. But I can express my actual needs and wants in a referendum.

What do you think about referendums?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post. Of course I&#8217;ve thought about these issues too. Just some quick thoughts:</p>
<p>I am pretty sure that I will never vote for anyone. I&#8217;d probably have to reconsider under the following two circumstances:<br />
-If there were a candidate who said that his only goal is to abolish the State. I would reconsider it although it would be pointless for me to vote because if such a person could get a lot of votes, we could sure as hell achive anarchy through agorist means.<br />
-If there were a candidate like Hitler who had a good chance of winning. I would probably vote against that person. But then again, if there were such a candidate, everything would be lost already.<br />
Apart from that, I will never waste my time in party politics.<br />
(The Swiss system is slightly different but that&#8217;s just the simple version of it.)</p>
<p>What I will do, however, is engage in the referendums, which are put to a vote quite frequently in Switzerland. I think a real direct democracy is not really distinguishable from a libertarian society. Of course, Switzerland is by no means a real direct democracy. But as long as I can directly alter the course the politics here are taking, I will do that. I will always vote &#8220;More Liberty - Yes&#8221; and &#8220;Less Liberty - No&#8221;. I don&#8217;t see how that&#8217;s counterproductive in any sense. To refuse to vote on getting your finger cut off is not the same as saying that you don&#8217;t agree with any aggression towards yourself. So why not vote on getting your finger cut off instead of getting your head cut off? My problems with voting for a politician is not a moral one but a pragmatic one. I can&#8217;t delegate my needs and wants to anybody, so I would only vote for someone who promised to leave me alone. But I can express my actual needs and wants in a referendum.</p>
<p>What do you think about referendums?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
