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	<title>Comments on: UPDATED: The rise of black market security firms</title>
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	<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615</link>
	<description>the bottom of the rabbit hole</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 00:52:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Brad Spangler</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615/comment-page-1#comment-19866</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Spangler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 07:11:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615#comment-19866</guid>
		<description>If such a dispute were brought before me as an arbitrator, the way I would rule is that while the minority of owners could not block the majority of owners from doing such basic things as providing security patrols in the jointly-owned common areas to ward off trigger-happy gangs, the majority of owners would be required to negotiate in good faith with the minority in splitting the association and its jointly-owned assets.

The fact that no voluntary stock purchase occurred is irrelevant. The common areas are jointly-owned and that's the state's fault. It's a fait accompli, as I believe the term goes. To begin to enjoy the benefits of ownership, control of the asset has to be established.

Voting on what someone can do with their own property, by people who are not the owners of the property in question, is an act of aggression if that vote is backed by force. Among co-owners of a jointly-held parcel of property, though, it's an entirely different matter. If the majority getting their way with the property they co-own with the minority is supposedly wrong, then the minority getting their way with the property they co-own with the majority would be JUST AS WRONG (not more wrong since rights aren't additive).

The reality of a revolutionary situation likely will be such that people will either reconcile themselves to cooperating with their neighbors, figure out terms for an amicable property "divorce" or prepare for life to get really interesting and potentially very short. I imagine things will look a lot like a full employment program for excess lawyers -- lots of talks, bargaining, disputes and arbitration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If such a dispute were brought before me as an arbitrator, the way I would rule is that while the minority of owners could not block the majority of owners from doing such basic things as providing security patrols in the jointly-owned common areas to ward off trigger-happy gangs, the majority of owners would be required to negotiate in good faith with the minority in splitting the association and its jointly-owned assets.</p>
<p>The fact that no voluntary stock purchase occurred is irrelevant. The common areas are jointly-owned and that&#8217;s the state&#8217;s fault. It&#8217;s a fait accompli, as I believe the term goes. To begin to enjoy the benefits of ownership, control of the asset has to be established.</p>
<p>Voting on what someone can do with their own property, by people who are not the owners of the property in question, is an act of aggression if that vote is backed by force. Among co-owners of a jointly-held parcel of property, though, it&#8217;s an entirely different matter. If the majority getting their way with the property they co-own with the minority is supposedly wrong, then the minority getting their way with the property they co-own with the majority would be JUST AS WRONG (not more wrong since rights aren&#8217;t additive).</p>
<p>The reality of a revolutionary situation likely will be such that people will either reconcile themselves to cooperating with their neighbors, figure out terms for an amicable property &#8220;divorce&#8221; or prepare for life to get really interesting and potentially very short. I imagine things will look a lot like a full employment program for excess lawyers &#8212; lots of talks, bargaining, disputes and arbitration.</p>
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		<title>By: devon</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615/comment-page-1#comment-19851</link>
		<dc:creator>devon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 21:29:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615#comment-19851</guid>
		<description>No, because when a person buys stock he buys it knowing that each holder has voting rights, as it stated in the by-laws of the corporation, and what the majority says goes. Stock is issued under that condition. Just because something is owned in common it is in no way implicit that the highest bidder or the majority may decide who is allowed to use that common area. That is a statist assumption. So, again, you're making a bad analogy.

Just as it would be an aggression for one person to eject people of his choice off of a common road, it is aggression for a group of people to eject people of their choice off of a common road, whether that group comprises a minority or majority. Likewise, it is aggression for a faction who is merely the highest bidder to eject people off its choice off of a common road. And, remember that the drug dealers are also equal owners of the common areas. By not allowing them to use the common area, you're violating their ownership rights. There was no prior agreement or condition to allow majority rule or highest bidder rule.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, because when a person buys stock he buys it knowing that each holder has voting rights, as it stated in the by-laws of the corporation, and what the majority says goes. Stock is issued under that condition. Just because something is owned in common it is in no way implicit that the highest bidder or the majority may decide who is allowed to use that common area. That is a statist assumption. So, again, you&#8217;re making a bad analogy.</p>
<p>Just as it would be an aggression for one person to eject people of his choice off of a common road, it is aggression for a group of people to eject people of their choice off of a common road, whether that group comprises a minority or majority. Likewise, it is aggression for a faction who is merely the highest bidder to eject people off its choice off of a common road. And, remember that the drug dealers are also equal owners of the common areas. By not allowing them to use the common area, you&#8217;re violating their ownership rights. There was no prior agreement or condition to allow majority rule or highest bidder rule.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Spangler</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615/comment-page-1#comment-19847</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Spangler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 07:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615#comment-19847</guid>
		<description>Are you asserting that a company can only take action in a legitimate manner if stockholders are in 100% agreement on any specific course of action?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you asserting that a company can only take action in a legitimate manner if stockholders are in 100% agreement on any specific course of action?</p>
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		<title>By: devon</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615/comment-page-1#comment-19845</link>
		<dc:creator>devon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 05:47:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615#comment-19845</guid>
		<description>You said "IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m asserting that the common areas of the neighborhood are rightfully the joint property of the residents (in ethical terms, regardless of the State calling them Ã¢â‚¬Å“public propertyÃ¢â‚¬Â) and that nascent associations with (in aggregate) just claims can assert those claims, to include evicting itinerant recreational pharmaceutical peddlers, with a simple majority of the joint owners."

You're making a statist leap when you say that because these are common areas, that the MAJORITY, ought to be able to dictate who is allowed in these common areas. Again, that would be forced democracy. Precisely because they're common areas, universal consent would be required. The only exception would be a prior contract accepted universally by all common owners to allow the majority or the highest bidders to rule the common area. Anything else is no different than statism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You said &#8220;IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m asserting that the common areas of the neighborhood are rightfully the joint property of the residents (in ethical terms, regardless of the State calling them Ã¢â‚¬Å“public propertyÃ¢â‚¬Â) and that nascent associations with (in aggregate) just claims can assert those claims, to include evicting itinerant recreational pharmaceutical peddlers, with a simple majority of the joint owners.&#8221;</p>
<p>You&#8217;re making a statist leap when you say that because these are common areas, that the MAJORITY, ought to be able to dictate who is allowed in these common areas. Again, that would be forced democracy. Precisely because they&#8217;re common areas, universal consent would be required. The only exception would be a prior contract accepted universally by all common owners to allow the majority or the highest bidders to rule the common area. Anything else is no different than statism.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Spangler</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615/comment-page-1#comment-19844</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Spangler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 04:45:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615#comment-19844</guid>
		<description>With regard to this:

"&lt;em&gt;If someone has to travel a public road to get to a private home...&lt;/em&gt;"

...please refer to &lt;a href="http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615#comment-19838" rel="nofollow"&gt;comment number eight by me.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With regard to this:</p>
<p>&#8220;<em>If someone has to travel a public road to get to a private home&#8230;</em>&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;please refer to <a href="http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615#comment-19838" rel="nofollow">comment number eight by me.</a></p>
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		<title>By: devon</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615/comment-page-1#comment-19843</link>
		<dc:creator>devon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 04:08:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615#comment-19843</guid>
		<description>If someone has to travel a public road to get to a private home, and someone puts up a road block determine what goods will be allowed in which will be prohibited, that's an aggression. If drug dealers are not being allowed on common roads, that's exactly what's happening. You're assuming that each person who shares collective ownership in that road consents to everything that the majority says on who ought to be prohibited from traveling on that common road, but they don't (Note that in this Rio case, it's not necessarily even a majority, but may well be a minority. It is whoever is paying these private police). Again, if it is majority rule over that road, it is forced collectivism. It's democratic statism. Unless those who own the road in common consented beforehand to leave the decisions on who travels on the common road to majority decision, or to the highest bidder, as is happening in Rio, it's statism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If someone has to travel a public road to get to a private home, and someone puts up a road block determine what goods will be allowed in which will be prohibited, that&#8217;s an aggression. If drug dealers are not being allowed on common roads, that&#8217;s exactly what&#8217;s happening. You&#8217;re assuming that each person who shares collective ownership in that road consents to everything that the majority says on who ought to be prohibited from traveling on that common road, but they don&#8217;t (Note that in this Rio case, it&#8217;s not necessarily even a majority, but may well be a minority. It is whoever is paying these private police). Again, if it is majority rule over that road, it is forced collectivism. It&#8217;s democratic statism. Unless those who own the road in common consented beforehand to leave the decisions on who travels on the common road to majority decision, or to the highest bidder, as is happening in Rio, it&#8217;s statism.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Spangler</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615/comment-page-1#comment-19841</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Spangler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2007 22:45:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615#comment-19841</guid>
		<description>Once more, comments from Devon seem to be disappearing for unknown reasons. In this case, just one so far. I've also heard from him via email that he's having trouble posting new comments because of some as yet unspecified spam filter issue.

My own comment directly above this is a reply to a missing comment by Devon. I'll repost it here below:
&lt;blockquote&gt;That's a false analogy. When you buy a stock share you are entering into a collective arrangement. When someone buys a house they're not buying a share of collective ownership of everyone else's property.  To say that it is legitimate for some, or even a majority, of homeowners in your neighborhood to pay to have roaming policemen forcibly preventing the pizza delivery guy from coming to your house is forced collectivism. That's exactly that individualist anarchism is against.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once more, comments from Devon seem to be disappearing for unknown reasons. In this case, just one so far. I&#8217;ve also heard from him via email that he&#8217;s having trouble posting new comments because of some as yet unspecified spam filter issue.</p>
<p>My own comment directly above this is a reply to a missing comment by Devon. I&#8217;ll repost it here below:</p>
<blockquote><p>That&#8217;s a false analogy. When you buy a stock share you are entering into a collective arrangement. When someone buys a house they&#8217;re not buying a share of collective ownership of everyone else&#8217;s property.  To say that it is legitimate for some, or even a majority, of homeowners in your neighborhood to pay to have roaming policemen forcibly preventing the pizza delivery guy from coming to your house is forced collectivism. That&#8217;s exactly that individualist anarchism is against.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: devon</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615/comment-page-1#comment-19840</link>
		<dc:creator>devon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2007 21:49:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615#comment-19840</guid>
		<description>If someone has to travel a public road to get to a private home, and someone puts up a road block determine what goods will be allowed in which will be prohibited, that's an aggression. If drug dealers are not being allowed on common roads, that's exactly what's happening. You're assuming that each person who shares collective ownership in that road consents to everything that the majority says on who ought to be prohibited from traveling on that common road, but they don't (Note that in this Rio case, it's not necessarily even a majority, but may well be a minority. It is whoever is paying these private police). Again, if it is majority rule over that road, it is forced collectivism. It's democratic statism. Unless those who own the road in common consented beforehand to leave the decisions on who travels on the common road to majority decision, or to the highest bidder as is happening in Rio, it's no different than statism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If someone has to travel a public road to get to a private home, and someone puts up a road block determine what goods will be allowed in which will be prohibited, that&#8217;s an aggression. If drug dealers are not being allowed on common roads, that&#8217;s exactly what&#8217;s happening. You&#8217;re assuming that each person who shares collective ownership in that road consents to everything that the majority says on who ought to be prohibited from traveling on that common road, but they don&#8217;t (Note that in this Rio case, it&#8217;s not necessarily even a majority, but may well be a minority. It is whoever is paying these private police). Again, if it is majority rule over that road, it is forced collectivism. It&#8217;s democratic statism. Unless those who own the road in common consented beforehand to leave the decisions on who travels on the common road to majority decision, or to the highest bidder as is happening in Rio, it&#8217;s no different than statism.</p>
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		<title>By: devon</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615/comment-page-1#comment-19839</link>
		<dc:creator>devon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2007 21:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615#comment-19839</guid>
		<description>If someone has to travel a public road to get to a private home, and someone puts up a road block determine what goods will be allowed in which will be prohibited, that's an aggression. If drug dealers are not being allowed on common roads, that's exactly what's happening. You're assuming that each person who shares collective ownership in that road consents to everything that the majority says on who ought to be prohibited from traveling on that common road, but they don't (Note that in this Rio case, it's not necessarily even a majority, but may well be a minority. It is whoever is paying these private police). Again, if it is majority rule over that road, it is forced collectivism. It's democratic statism. Unless those who own the road in common consented beforehand to leave the decisions on who travels on the common road to majority decision, or the highest bidder as is happening in Rio, it's statism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If someone has to travel a public road to get to a private home, and someone puts up a road block determine what goods will be allowed in which will be prohibited, that&#8217;s an aggression. If drug dealers are not being allowed on common roads, that&#8217;s exactly what&#8217;s happening. You&#8217;re assuming that each person who shares collective ownership in that road consents to everything that the majority says on who ought to be prohibited from traveling on that common road, but they don&#8217;t (Note that in this Rio case, it&#8217;s not necessarily even a majority, but may well be a minority. It is whoever is paying these private police). Again, if it is majority rule over that road, it is forced collectivism. It&#8217;s democratic statism. Unless those who own the road in common consented beforehand to leave the decisions on who travels on the common road to majority decision, or the highest bidder as is happening in Rio, it&#8217;s statism.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Spangler</title>
		<link>http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615/comment-page-1#comment-19838</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Spangler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2007 21:14:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/615#comment-19838</guid>
		<description>I'm not aware that anyone is blocking drug *deliveries* to specific residences. If I was an arbitrator in a dispute over that, I'd certainly rule that the residents all have an implicit easement for that sort of thing.

What has *actually* been going on, as described in the article, is that drug dealers have been using the common areas of the neighborhood as if those were their own place of business. I'm asserting that the common areas of the neighborhood are rightfully the joint property of the residents (in ethical terms, regardless of the State calling them "public property") and that nascent associations with (in aggregate) just claims can assert those claims, to include evicting itinerant recreational pharmaceutical peddlers, with a simple majority of the joint owners.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not aware that anyone is blocking drug *deliveries* to specific residences. If I was an arbitrator in a dispute over that, I&#8217;d certainly rule that the residents all have an implicit easement for that sort of thing.</p>
<p>What has *actually* been going on, as described in the article, is that drug dealers have been using the common areas of the neighborhood as if those were their own place of business. I&#8217;m asserting that the common areas of the neighborhood are rightfully the joint property of the residents (in ethical terms, regardless of the State calling them &#8220;public property&#8221;) and that nascent associations with (in aggregate) just claims can assert those claims, to include evicting itinerant recreational pharmaceutical peddlers, with a simple majority of the joint owners.</p>
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